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Starter cultures, whey, vinegar, celery juice, and brine from a previous batch—common ingredients in many fermentation recipes, but not in mine. Let’s explore why I skip these and what I use instead.
In my journey of fermenting sauerkraut and other vegetables, I’ve opted to leave out five specific ingredients that many guides suggest.
You might wonder why someone would sidestep such popular additives.
The reasons are straightforward: enhancing natural flavors, saving time, and cutting costs, all while adhering to the traditional art of lacto-fermentation.
This method not only simplifies the process but also elevates the taste and nutritional value of the final product.
In this post, I’ll delve into why these ingredients are unnecessary for creating safe, delicious ferments and what alternatives provide better results for your fermentation adventures.
Ready to learn how to let nature do the work and perhaps save a few bucks along the way?
Let’s get into the details.
- Lacto-Fermentation (Wild Fermentation) vs. Cultured Fermentation
- 1. Do You Need to Use a Starter Culture to Make Your Ferment Safe?
- 2. Why not use Whey for Vegetable Fermentation?
- 3. Can You Add Vinegar to Give Your Ferment Tang?
- 4. Should You Use Celery Juice for No-Salt Sauekraut?
- 5. What’s Wrong with Using a Bit of Brine from a Previous Batch of Sauerkraut?
- What to Use Instead of Starter Cultures, Whey, Vinegar, Celery Juice or Leftover Brine?
Lacto-Fermentation (Wild Fermentation) vs. Cultured Fermentation
First off…
Let’s make sure you understand what lacto-fermentation is. Then you’ll understand why starter cultures are not necessary.
Wild fermentation,
Lacto-fermentation, or
Lactic-acid fermentation –
as I promote in my recipes – uses the native bacteria that are present on the vegetables you are fermenting to culture the food.
“Lactic acid” is used to name this type of fermentation, not because it contains any dairy (it doesn’t), but because of the lactic acid bacteria (LAB) that make everything happen. These powerful bacteria are called lactic-acid bacteria because they produce lactic acid. So logical!
This lactic acid gives ferments a sour taste – much like vinegar – and acts as a preservative for your sauerkraut or fermented vegetables.
Lactic acid bacteria are present in our soil and therefore found on anything that grows in the earth.
You’ll also see the term “wild-fermentation” used because fermentation happens just fine without anything else – oops, salt – but the bacteria that occur naturally on the vegetables you’re fermenting.
You do not need to purchase starters.
You do not need to drip yogurt to get whey.
You do not need to juice celery.
You just need to give the bacteria the home they like – a brine of 2% – and let the trillions of members of our microbial world do their thing.
This is in contrast to “cultured” foods, where you do need to add a culture of some sort to make the magic happen.
Kombucha, water kefir and milk kefir are all fermented with the addition of a culture: a SCOBY (Symbiotic Culture Of Bacteria and Yeasts). The bacteria work together to create the actual physical SCOBY along with consuming the sugar in the sweetened tea (Kombucha), sweetened juice (water kefir) or milk sugars (milk kefir) and producing the finished product.
Or with yogurt, where a dollop of yogurt (from a previous batch) is mixed into warmed milk and left to culture for 8 to 24 hours in a warm place. During this time, the bacteria present in the yogurt go to work for us, growing and multiplying, to turn the milk into a thick, creamy product with a soured tang – more yogurt.
Now, on to explain why a starter culture, whey, vinegar, celery juice or back-slopped brine is recommended for use in vegetable ferments. Even if you never intend to use these methods, read on. You’ll better understand what is happening in that jar of yours that is fermenting on your countertop.
1. Do You Need to Use a Starter Culture to Make Your Ferment Safe?
Started cultures are dried powders of various strains of bacteria that are used to inoculate your ferment. The powder is usually dissolved in water before being thoroughly mixed with your prepared cabbage and vegetables.
I must be honest and confess that I have never used a starter culture to make sauerkraut. When I first started fermenting, the only starter cultures available contained ingredients – such as skim milk powder – that I did not want in my sauerkraut. Since then, however, starter cultures have improved even to the point of using specific strains of bacteria to produce higher levels of specific nutrients, K2 for example.
I still am not drawn to them and prefer the simplicity of just cabbage, salt and time.
Starter Cultures for Fermentation & Why Some Recommend Their Use:
- Speed up the fermentation process.
- Control the fermentation process.
- Safety.
“You can never be sure that there are enough naturally occurring lactic-acid bacteria on your vegetables to neutralize and crowd out pathogenic bacteria such as e Coli, salmonella, listeria.“
This was emphasized in one company’s video. This is fear-mongering to sell starters. Pathogenic bacteria can not survive in the acidic fermentation environment.
Starter Cultures for Fermentation & Why I Don’t Use Them:
- Use of non-bacterial ingredients you might not want in your ferment.
Here are some that I’ve seen listed on various starter cultures:
Organic maltodextrin, as a carrier.
Organic tapioca sugar as food for the bacteria.
Inulin, a prebiotic fiber derived from chicory root.
Lactic yeasts.
Skim milk powder.
Microcrystalline cellulose.
Silicone dioxide. - Cost.
A packet of starter cultures costs anywhere from $3-4 and is recommend for 2-5 pounds of vegetables. Such money is better spent on a weight and airlock system for fermentation that will shift your sauerkraut making into a fun and easy adventure for years to come. - Not reusable.
I find it strange to have to buy a culture each time I want to ferment. Nature provides you with all the bacteria you need to successfully ferment… batch after batch. - May interfere with the natural – and ideal – progression of bacterial stages.
- Flavor changes.
By changing the fermentation process, starter cultures change the flavors of your fermented vegetable. - Shelf life. 12 months generally.
- Not necessary for vegetable ferments.
Vegetables have all the necessary lactic-acid bacteria already on them. - Commercially isolated strains of bacteria specifically chosen in a lab.
These are the strains of bacteria in some popular starter cultures:
Caldwell’s Starter Culture: lactobacillus plantarum, leuconostoc mesenteroides, pediococcus acidilactici.
Cutting Edge Starter Culture: lactobacillus plantarum, leuconostoc mesenteroides, pediococcus acidilactici.
Body Ecology Starter Culture: lactobacillus plantarum, pediococcus acidolactici, leuconostoc cremoris.
When You Need to Use a Starter Culture
UPDATE (September 8, 2016): In the few days after I published this post, questions came in that brought to light a couple of times when a starter culture might be useful. Here are two situations that I feel call for a starter culture. When you are:
- Fermenting onions.
“Onions are the only vegetable we now of that lack intrinsic lactic-acid bacteria.” – Shockey & Shockey, Fermented Vegetables
If you are fermenting an onion-only relish or chutney, you’ll want to use a starter. You could also use a spoonful of brine from a batch of sauerkraut, but knowing now that the bacteria in that brine – see item number 5, below – are a different set than the bacteria that initiate the fermentation process, I would lean towards using a purchased starter for onions.
Another way to preserve those onions is by pickling them in a citrus brine. Here’s one recipe I found without vinegar: Pickled Red Onions
If I had a choice for starters, I would go with the Body Ecology Starter Culture. It contains isolated bacteria strains (lactobacillus plantarum, pediococcus acidolactici, leuconostoc cremoris) and inulin, a prebiotic that help feed the bacteria in the ferment. - Fermenting low-quality vegetables.
“The quality of fermented vegetables, obtained as a result of natural spontaneous lactic-acid fermentation, is largely dependent on microorganisms present in the raw material. In unfavorable soil-climate conditions, the vegetables may become greatly contaminated with spore-forming bacteria, pathogens or mucous bacteria, yeasts, and molds which may predominate over lactic-acid bacteria, deteriorating the quality of fermented products.” – Polish Journal of Food and Nutrition Sciences: Starter Cultures for Lactic Acid Fermentation of Sweet Pepper, Pattypan Squash, and Tomatoes
This is why you want to use the highest-quality vegetables possible. Those vegetables are feeding the microbes that are doing the work of transforming humble vegetable into a flavor-rich ferment. Learn how to choose top quality cabbage for sauerkraut.
2. Why not use Whey for Vegetable Fermentation?
Whey is the cloudy, yellowish liquid you see floating on the surface when you open a tub of yogurt. Whey is also produced when making various kinds of cheeses as an old nursery rhyme captured.
Little Miss Muffett, sat on a tuffet, eating her curds and whey.
Whey is full of beneficial bacteria – depending upon its source – bacteria that you see called for in many fermentation recipes. In fact, when searching the internet for recipes, it is near to impossible to find a fermented vegetable recipe that does not call for whey. This is slowly changing as we better understand what is necessary for an ideal progression of fermentation.
The bacteria present in the whey, however, are different bacteria than would naturally occur on vegetables. Whey is a dairy culture and therefore contains bacteria that live and grow in dairy.
In fact, Amanda Feifer author of a highly recommend book Ferment Your Vegetables, is quite vocal – in all caps – about the use of whey in ferments:
“YOU DO NOT NEED TO USE WHEY, OR ANY OTHER STARTER, TO FERMENT VEGETABLES, AND USING A STARTER COULD ACTUALLY HURT THE QUALITY OF YOUR FERMENT.”
Bacteria Found in Sauerkraut or Cultured Vegetables
These bacteria thrive in soil working together to break down organic matter.
- Leuconostoc mesenteroides
- Lactobacillus brevis
- Pediococcus acidilactici
- Pediococcus pentosaceus
- Lactovacillus Plantarum
Bacteria Found in My Tub of Sagueen Yogurt
These bacteria work together in milk to break down lactose.
- Streptococcus Thermophilus
- Lactobacillus Bulgaricus
- Lactobacillus Acidophilus
- Bifidobacterium Species
Compare those two lists. I don’t know about you, but I see no overlap. By using whey, you are attempting fermentation with a totally different set of bacteria.
Whey for Fermentation & Why Some Recommend It’s Use
- To reduce salt.
Recommended by Sally Fallon in her book Nourishing Traditions as a way to reduce the amount of salt used in a ferment. We have learned a lot about fermentation since her book was first published in 1999.
Many – myself included – were introduced to fermentation by this book. Using the proper amount of salt is key to successful fermentation. Correct brine percentages foster an ideal environment for the right bacteria to thrive and the wrong bacteria to die.
Salt by Weight for Delicious Sauerkraut… Batch after Batch - To prevent waste.
On old-style farms with dairy cows, the cheese-making processes produced a lot of whey. Only so much could be fed to the pigs, so some societies may have used it in their ferments. - Historical basis.
Based upon some historical use of whey, whey was used when salt was not available. - Speed up the fermentation process.
Whey for Fermentation & Why I Don’t Use It
- Changes the end flavor.
More complex flavors are developed when you let the natural progression happen. Some may not taste this change. My first few batches of sauerkraut were made following Sally Fallon’s recipe, which calls for the use of whey. I did not like the end results – mushy with a dirty taste. It took me a while to feel comfortable not using whey, but when I started making sauerkraut without whey, boy did I enjoy the shift in flavors. - Often results in a soft and slimy texture.
Either different bacteria are proliferating or fermentation is proceeding too quickly causing the vegetables to break down. - Changes the fermentation process.
Adding microorganisms to ferments that don’t need them shifts the stages. No research to back this up, but I would assume that the health benefits would likewise shift. - Skipped fermentation stages.
May cause pH to drop too quickly and skip the necessary stages for a fully fermented product. - An unnecessary extra step.
Dripping a tub of yogurt takes time. We all have busy lives. The addition of one extra step may be the breaking point of sauerkraut getting made. Keep it simple. - Whey needs to be super fresh.
Forget about keeping a stash of whey in the fridge for a few weeks. By then the balance of bacteria in the whey have shifted. - Introduces a different set of lactic-acid bacteria.
The lactic-acid bacteria in whey come from dairy, not from vegetables. I eat a variety of fermented foods to innoculate my gut with a diverse range of bacteria. By uses whey in a vegetable ferment, a different set of bacteria are proliferating and there’s less of a chance of consuming lactic-acid bacteria from our soils. - Introduces dairy into a vegetable ferment.
This is not an option for lactose-intolerant individuals.
Is There a Use for Whey?
Yogurt Cream Cheese is a staple in our home. I hang a tub of yogurt and then mix the resulting thick, creamy cheese with salt and spices for a delicious spread. I end up with a few cups of whey. Sadly, it often gets dumped into the compost pile after a few weeks of sitting in the fridge untouched.
How to Make Strained Yoghurt Cream Cheese
Maybe one day, I’ll learn to make cottage cheese with it.
Recipe: Traditional Whey Ricotta
This whey is also great for fermenting items that don’t come with their own beneficial bacteria to make the fermentation process happen.
My fermented coconut water recipe gives options for a variety of cultures, whey is one of them:
Fermented Coconut Water [The Complete Guide]
I’ve also have made many a batch of Rose Hip Hibiscus Soda with it. One of many favorites:
3. Can You Add Vinegar to Give Your Ferment Tang?
Vinegar is an acidic medium commonly used in commercial pickles, sauerkraut and condiments to give the final product a sour, tangy flavor. Such foods are not fermented but instead “pickled” to make a quick shelf-stable product. A dead product.
The process of natural fermentation – promoted on this site for its countless health benefits – creates its own acidic medium – lactic acid. During fermentation, the starches and sugars in the fermenting vegetables are converted to lactic acid by the bacteria lactobacilli. This lactic acid naturally preserves the food and imparts the tangy sour smell and flavor. Hence, the often seen term of “lacto-fermentation.”
This acidity is why a surefire to sleep at night knowing your ferment is safe to eat is to check if the acids have developed enough to lower the pH to safe levels through the use of pH paper. Read how to do so on my Fermenting Supplies page.
Recipes for “refrigerator” pickles – or “quick” pickles – will call for the use of vinegar. This is a great way to make a shelf-stable product, but if you are wanting to develop great gut health, such pickles offer no probiotic or enzymes to aid in digestion and establish healthy gut flora.
Cucumbers can be naturally fermented without vinegar.
Naturally Fermented Pickles [The Complete Guide]
Vinegar for Fermentation & Why Some Recommend It’s Use
- Makes for a shelf-stable product.
Sauerkraut and pickles that you purchase off a grocery store shelf have been pickled with vinegar and then processed in a hot-water bath. These products are not fermented and hence do not offer the probiotic and enzymatic benefits of lacto-fermented foods. - A quick way to sour a vegetable.
Adding vinegar to your vegetable ferment gives it an instant sour tang. With time, lacto-fermentation develops that same tang by the growth of the lactic-acid bacteria that create lactic acid to preserve and add tang to your ferment.
Vinegar for Fermentation & Why I Don’t Use It
- Pickles the vegetables, does not ferment them.
- Disrupts the ratio of lactic acid created by the bacteria in your ferment to the acetic acid created by fermentation.
By adding vinegar, even raw apple cider vinegar, you stunt the growth of the lactic-acid bacteria resulting in off-texture and flavor and a decrease in the natural preservative qualities of lacto-fermentation. - Lacking in lactic-acid.
Lactic-acid is incredibly beneficial for digestion.
4. Should You Use Celery Juice for No-Salt Sauekraut?
You may have come across recipes calling for the use of celery juice, usually a non-salt sauerkraut recipe. Celery contains natural sodium – nitrate – thus preventing the need for salt. You’ll also see it listed as an ingredient in naturally cured bacon. The use of celery juice for fermentation was made popular by a recipe featured on Dr. Mercola’s website that is designed to sell a starter culture instead of teaching you how to make traditionally fermented sauerkraut.
Celery Juice for Fermentation & Why Some Recommend It’s Use
- A way to make salt-free sauerkraut.
However, the level of sodium in the celery juice is unknown, thus it is hard to know if you’re achieving a 2% brine.
In addition, the recipe I came across calls for the use of a starter to ensure a good ferment.
Celery Juice for Fermentation & Why I Don’t Use It
- Need a juicer.
A juicer is an expensive piece of equipment you may or may not already own. You’re better off putting that money into a crock or a nice digital scale. - Requires an extra step.
And, a labor-intensive step. In my juicer, the celery fibers clog the blades and require frequent cleaning. - Vegetables naturally create their own brine.
Adding salt to sliced vegetables extracts water from their cells and creates the necessary brine and at times more brine that can fit into your jar. - Adds a celery juice flavor to each batch.
- Unknown levels of sodium in the celery juice.
Salt – and the right amount of salt – is essential in establishing a safe fermentation environment conducive to beneficial bacteria and inhospitable to pathogenic bacteria.
How Much Salt Do I Use to Make Sauerkraut?
5. What’s Wrong with Using a Bit of Brine from a Previous Batch of Sauerkraut?
Periodically, someone emails me asking if they can add brine from a previous batch of sauerkraut to their next batch of sauerkraut. I never had a clear answer to that until delving into the use of starter cultures for this post.
Back-slopping, or taking a few tablespoons of brine from a previous batch of sauerkraut, and adding it to a new batch makes sense. After all, why not take advantage of all those good bacteria to help with the fermentation process?
There’s also the question of a reusing a large quantity of brine from a batch of pickled vegetables, like carrots or pickles. Why not just repack the jar with a fresh set of carrot sticks?
Brine from a Previous Batch for Fermentation & Why Some Recommend It’s Use
- Reduce waste.
The best use for any probiotic-rich leftover brine in a jar of pickles or sauerkraut is to drink it (or make a salad dressing with it).
We are slowly seeing fermentation companies promoting exactly that. Gut Shots can now be found on grocery store shelves (refrigerated, it’s live!). There’s even drink recipes calling for its use. Dirty Martini anyone?
Any leftover brine I have just gets dumped into another jar of finished sauerkraut. - Makes sense.
Until you look further into why it really doesn’t. See below.
Brine from a Previous Batch for Fermentation & Why I Don’t Use It
- Alters the stages of sauerkraut fermentation.
The 3 or 4 stages of sauerkraut fermentation are altered when you add brine from a previous batch. If you add the bacteria from the finished ferment, the bacteria at stage 4 of the process, it will be a different product because you are interfering with the first few stages. A lot of the flavor happens in some of these stages. Let them progress as nature intended. - Lowers the acidity of your ferment prematurely.
The pH of the brine from a finished ferment (<4.0 pH) is much lower than the pH of the brine when first packing the cabbage and vegetables into the jar or crock. Different bacteria prefer different levels of acidity. Your ferment has not yet gone through the steps to create that acid environment. - Can result in mushy, flavorless sauerkraut due to the shifting of the fermentation stages.
What to Use Instead of Starter Cultures, Whey, Vinegar, Celery Juice or Leftover Brine?
Salt, and Time.
And during this time, it’s the microbes doing the work, not you.
Let them do their job in their own sweet time. Trust in them establish that ideal environment for healthy bacteria, develop a broad flavor profile in your ferment and open your eyes to the incredible and awe-inspiring world of fermentation.
Good-bye to starter cultures.
Here are a set of recipes to get you started:
Sauerkraut Recipes to Please Any Palate
Resources
Can I Use Bragg’s Raw Vinegary in My Brine?
The Crucial Difference Between Fermented and Pickled
Fermented Fruits and Vegetables, A Global Perspective…
The Fermented Food Podcast, Episode 10: To Starter or Not to Starter Culture
Microorganism in Foods 6: Microbial Ecology of Food Communities
Do you agree or disagree about the use of starter cultures in sauerkraut and vegetable ferments? What are your experiences?
Last update on 2025-11-13 / Affiliate links / Images from Amazon Product Advertising API
Wow! Holly
Great article, now I know why a few batches of Kraut I have made turned out Yuky.
Glad I decided to subscribe to your News Letter.
Thanks
Ben
We are ALL always learning. Why to not back-slop was a new one for me.
LOL,,Yep, I have done the very same thing, I had all of this great Kraut Juice left over so I decide that I would use it again “””WRONG”””
the batch came out mussy and Fermented way to quick,, Spoiled the whole batch,,
I have a problem making each batch turn out the same,, but after reading your “”Salt”” mixture of 3tb spoons for 5lb of cabbage that may just fix my problem,, I also understand that the Temperature has
a lot to do with the final product.
Ben
Thanks for sharing your experience with back-slopping.
Yes, temperature does make a difference. Also, check out salt by weight. (You’ll need a digital scale.) Once you understand that, the whole process shifts: http://www.makesauerkraut.com/salt-by-weight/
Well Holly
You talked me into it lol,,Just ordered the KD8000,not that expensive considering that I make 2,, 5gal. crocks full, so if I lose a batch the scale will pay for itself .the first time.
This has been my problem all along, that and the high temps.
I will keep you informed on my success lol.
Now for the salt.
Thanks for your help
Ben
You won’t regret it. I’ve found so many uses for my KD8000. Do make use of the % key. I just discovered it after using my scale for a year! And, read the directions on how to disable the “auto-off” feature. I’ll include all this in a post, although not in time for your needs.
Hello Holly
Yes I am excited about trying your method out,,, I know now that has been my problem all along,, (SALT) your method is fool proof and simple, 1.75 ib or 800 grams x .02 =16 grams of salt
900 grams x .02 =18 grams of salt
I have been using the measuring spoon and different salt also
I also ordered the Himalayan Salt .
Cant wait to try a batch..
Thanks for help,
Ben
Great info. I agree, when it comes to food, simpler is better!
Yes, and by complicating matters I think we end up avoiding actually doing the intend action.
Great article!
Thank YOU!
I’m pleased I found your recipie on the net for my first attempt! Thanks.
You’re quite welcome. Happy to shorten the learning curve. I hope you’re pleased with the results! 🙂
Hello Holly
Well I have been trying to figure out the KD-800 🙂 I see what you mean about the %
function that is fool proof (I hope) lol,, I am trying to brush up on my Metric Conversions.
so far the math has been working out, I will work in 5lb. batches, = 2,267.962 grams x .02
= 45.35 grams of salt or 3.02 tbsp. of salt. or you can do it this way 3x 1.75 = 5.25 lb. and 16 grams x 3 = 48 grams of salt .
Got the jars in the dish washer, got the Crock cleaned up 🙂
I would like to Thank You again for your information, I (NOW) know why one batch would be great and the next one you could not eat LOL.
Hope you have a Great Week-End
Ben
No need to brush up on metric conversions – work in grams!!!
2400 grams for a 5 pound batch, approximately. Weigh that out – or what every size you want – and then hit the percent key and slowly pour in salt until you hit 2%.
I may not have that exactly right. I do need to do a guide to go with my scale recommendation, In due time, but that won’t help you. Search some YouTube videos for “KD8000 My Weigh percent key.” Here’s one (tells you how to turn off the auto-off feature, too): http://www.northwestsourdough.com/program-the-kd8000-scale-and-use-the-bakers-percent-key/
Thank you for your kind feedback and let me know how you make out.
This is a killer post. Well done!! I think that nature knows best and simpler is better. However I do see a case for using “cultured” vegetables in addition to naturally fermented vegetables to diversify the spectrum of beneficial gut bacteria or to produce harder to come by nutrients, like K2. But the cultures must be of impeccable quality and super pure.
I have never considered the “stages of fermentation” and the idea seems so obviously beneficial. Nature knows best.
Thanks a ton.
Thank you Tyler, I learned a lot while putting it together and am continuing to learn as I answer readers’ questions. Like, I discovered onions contain no LAB (lactic-acid bacteria). I’ve always pickled them in lemon juice, thinking I was fermenting them. Not! Time to update the post.
Now, I want to buy some cultures and try them with onions to see if there is a difference.
And yes, “cutlured” vegetables is a nice way to broaden the range of bacteria we ingest. Kinetic Culture (Mercola) is the one that grows K2 (shorter shelf life for the K2 in the finished product), but then I wonder if we should be getting our K2 from other sources, instead…
Hi Holly, I’m confused about the onion thing, are you sure they contain no LAB?
I started fermenting a batch of onions a few days ago, sliced them thinly and massaged them with salt, just like you do when you make kraut with cabbage.
They started producing CO2 on the second day and are still fizzing away nicely, I assume this is due to the LAB that were present on the onions, but you say there are none.
Have I misunderstood you in some way?
(I’ve really enjoyed reading your blog by the way)
I’ve contacted my source on that info and am waiting for the research document. So thank you for asking and testing out the “theory.” I will have to do likewise. One batch with no culture, one with packaged culture and maybe one with brine. But, I would think if there are CO2 bubbles, there had to be LAB around to make that happen.
Will share the research once I have it.
thanks Holly, I’ll be interested to see what you come back with!
I have to say that although they yielded brine quite easily the onions were quite a palaver to process, I had to wear goggles to protect my eyes from the fumes…and they steamed up pretty quickly so it was all a bit of a to-do!
I put them in a tall narrow spagetti jar with a clip seal lid and large outer layers of onion as a ‘lid’ to hold the shredded onions down, then put a jar in as a weight
Day 8 now and they are still giving up bubbles when I press down on the inner jar.
Here’s a picture, you can sort of see some bubbles 🙂
Nice set of bubbles which means CO2 is being produced. By? LAB I would assume. Will share when I have the data.
Hi Holly, what sources of K2 do you use? Do you have any favorite ones, or do you ferment anything specifically for that purpose?
Natto is on my “incorporate into my diet list” – and has been for a long time. Stinky and a unfamiliar taste, so it hasn’t happened yet. 🙂
Hard cheeses, grass-fed Gouda and liver are also good sources of K2. I do not ferment anything right now for K2. I would probably just buy my Natto though one could learn to ferment it. Sauerkraut does have K2 but not at therapeutic levels. Soo, I take my K2 in the form of a supplement.
Same here, natto is on the long term list … Holly, I remember you said that you prefer the garbanzo miso from South River. Like you, I won’t be eating any soybeans ever again. What would be your source of information on how to ferment the natto right, with beans other than soybeans? Have you come across any reliable sources?
I did a quick search and came across Amanda from Phickle with a great fermentation book. Her recipes are generally good. Here’s her post with additional info in the comments section, where someone talked about using Pinto beans. I don’t think she’s made numerous batches but sometimes those first lessons are fresher with a newbie.
Thanks, Holly, I found it. Apparently, in Japan they also sell ‘black natto’ made from black beans. So that’s one option.
Do let us know if you make some natto. It may inspire others to do likewise. 🙂
All right! These days I’m working on getting the sourkraut right, based on your recipes. Next is pickling, again I’m learning from the articles you sent me in another post. So then after miso there comes natto’s turn… Step by step. Thank you so much for everything you do for us!!
By the way, which K2 supplement do you like using? Have you seen any positive effect??
Hello Leo, I use a Canadian product – http://www.canprev.ca/products/d3_k2 – and do notice achy joints when I stop taking it and/or my cod liver oil. You’ll want something that as a healthy oil as a carrier to help absorption.
Good plan. One step at a time. It helps fight overwhelm and leaves the mind open for good fermentation. And, you’re most welcome. I also appreciate all my thankful readers. 🙂
I hope you don’t mind me jumping on here but I use corn silk tea for bladder and UTI health and it is a natural source of vitamin K2 so much so that people who take Warferin are cautioned against using it as it works as a blood thickener. worth looking into if you are looking for other things to get K2 into your diet. I save and dry my own from sweetcorn at harvest (organic is best).
Thank YOU for chiming in here, Ermerald. So much to learn from one another. I have not heard of corn silk as a source of K2 before. I appreciate you sharing.
Glad to find this blog and the really clear instructions for making sauerkraut. I am a first timer, made some with red cabbage and I see that it takes longer to ferment. Made it on 25/8/16 and it is only now starting to show bubbles. Starting to taste quite good, am excited to see it progress. Am going to try some other recipes on your site, didn’t even realise you could put other things in with the cabbage … duh!!
Hello Maureen, Good to hear your sauerkraut is progressing. Congrats on your first batch. It only gets easier. How about pineapple in sauerkraut??? Quite good. Enjoy the other recipes and let us know how your first batch turns out.
Fantastic post! There’s a ton of information here. Found it while searching for what to do with all the whey leftover from my ricotta making, and help in finally getting started making sauerkraut this winter. It’s a project I’ve been trying to get to for YEARS. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge. Glad I found you!
You’re quite welcome. Have you ever my ricotta from whey?
No, I make very small batches so the yield would be very low. But, I just found a recipe for a Norwegian cheese made from ricotta whey called gjetost. It requires reducing and concentrating the whey. Will try it this weekend and let you know how it turns out.
Thanks – look forward to it. I’ve been saving jars of whey in the freezer in hopes of one day trying the Whey Ricotta. The recipe I saw just cooks it down into ricotta…
That was a GREAT article that answered many questions I have had while pickling and fermenting many things over the years (kombucha, water and milk kefir, saurkraut, fermented pickles, non-fermented refrigerator pickles) but it did not answer my current burning question. I have been trying to recreate paocai aka Sichuan Pickled Vegetables (cabbage and other) that I’ve had in several Sichuan restaurants and I’m going crazy trying to duplicate the amazing effervescent almost beery flavor and tingling taste. Many of the recipes call for several things that your article does not cover. 1. Creating the brine (usually 2%) in advance and letting it sit for a solid week to make “old salt water” (what is happening during this week??? are microbes starting!?), and 2. Adding 2 Tbsp per quart of brine of some clear alcohol like Vodka or Sake (what does this do!?!). I tried following these recipes and ended up with fermented cabbage that tastes just like sauerkraut, NOT like their fermented cabbage, which is not sour, but is like I said above, somewhat beery and tingly like carbonated, and salty, and the vegetables are tender like they were parboiled (but clearly it’s the fermentation that transformed them), whereas my sauerkraut cabbage stays crisper and gets sour, and has no effervescence or beery / alcohol-ish flavor (yet I did add the sake to the brine as called for).
All the restaurants keep their methods closely guarded secrets, and every one of them insists they ‘ferment’ their pickled vegetables in the refrigerator for “safety” – I think they are just saying that to suspicious Americans who would turn them into the food safety department if they admitted to letting things grow at room temperature.
Perhaps you have some thoughts or guesses as to how they are making their delicacy?
Hello Julia, Thank you! I’m glad to be able to answer some of your past questions. Now, for the current question… I’m sorry but I don’t have any fermentation suggestions.
I would contact Kristen Shockey, author of Fermented Vegetables. She recently traveled to Myanmar, Burma and other places as a fermentation adventure and also experiments much more than I do with recipes. http://ferment.works/ There might even be something in her upcoming book: Fiery Ferments.
Don’t know how they would be fermenting in the fridge, unless it was vinegar pickles… like you said “being safe around the food police.”
Thanks a lot!!! I wrote to Kirstin and have hopes for some possible enlightenment. I really doubt any of those restaurants are truly fermenting in the fridge. I went to yet another Sichuan restaurant a couple days ago and tried their version (which was fermented broccoli stems rather than cabbage, and it had that same distinctive tingly effervescent tang on the tongue) and the waiter I asked actually claimed they just chop them up fresh in the kitchen and add the seasoned brine! Each dish created only after being ordered. No fermentation at all! Clearly there is a tacit agreement among all employees of all Chinese restaurants everywhere to keep the ignorant or litigious Americans in the dark about their “dangerous” traditional ways)
And so unfortunate, because they are slowing taking away all our real food, but don’t get me into that one. All the more reason to know how to ferment. Let me know what you learn from Kirsten. FYI – from Kirsten, broccoli stems are fine for a short ferment, but not the rest; turns somewhat nasty, flavor wise.
I guess some people do not live in 100+ year old houses.
My house forbids Sour Dough and Lacto Fermentation without a 3rd party starter.
100% failure with out starters.
(Did you know there is a Neon Yellow Mold? My no-starter rye sour dough slime does)
After giving up because every single cucumber actually became a green bag of puss, I later tried starters, because what could be worse than 100% failure.
And they work! For the first time I have made cucumbers, asparagus, sweet peppers and even Beet K’Vass. Yes it is expensive, but what is cost when the alternative is vile, probably poisonous microbiological infestation?
If you don’t need to, don’t waste the money, but if its the only way DO IT. Real pickles are so worth it.
Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences and I’m happy to hear of some real-life experiences when one really does need starters. I’ll make a note in my post of your situation and when one might want to try them. Do you have a favorite brand?
Thanks for the advise about “back-slopping”. I just finished a batch of back-slopped kraut and it tasted odd. I’ll not do it again.
Glad it helped. Drink the leftover brine as a “Gut Shot,” or use it to top off a finished batch or sauerkraut or to make a salad dressing.
I would like to try fermented garlic but recipes seem to add whey for fermentation…can you give me a recipe without a starter
I reviewed my favorite fermentation book and include the garlic paste recipe in it: http://www.makesauerkraut.com/fermented-vegetables-book-review/ I find the paste much more versatile than fermenting just garlic cloves.
THANK YOU so much. i will be making sauerkraut today along with an education from your great information and my brother’s advice. We are Pennsylvania German although i live in N.H. My parents made it every year. Since they are gone my brother keeps the tradition going. I love garlic and i am so anxious to try your recipe for garlic paste and also the cranberry one. Thanks again
Happy to help and glad you’re able to carry on the Pennsylvania German tradition. It’s important to keep our traditional foodways alive.
I have fermented garlic for a couple of years using a 2% salt brine. The first year I peeled the cloves. I now just put the whole head unpeeled into the jar. When I need it, I separate the cloves and peel it. It is easier to peel after the fermentation. I think it keeps better unpeeled.
I hadn’t thought of it that way. Thank you so much for sharing. I will have to try your suggestion.
Hi Holly,
I’m trying to widen my fermenting experience a bit. I love cauliflower and found a recipe for Mediterranean Cauliflower Pickles. My question is can I use meyer lemons instead of ‘regular’ lemons? I have preserved lemons before and they are great.
I have preserved lemons yet, myself, but I see no reason why they would not work just fine. Dive in and learn. It’s great to try new ferments. 🙂
Hi Holly. Here with an update. I made the cauliflower recipe using Meyer lemons. Oh My Goodness! It turned out perfect. A little darker than I expected, from the dried herbs, but absolutely delicious! Thanks for your advice and encouragement.
Wonderful! Thank you for letting us know. Continue to enjoy expanding your fermentation repertoire. Happy to help.
Thank you very much for a fascinating article.
You might not agree with this – but I have just started experimenting by using water-kefir or juice kefir instead of brine (or vinegar). Note that this is NOT a dairy kefir but one that has been living off fruit or vegetable juices – a different ecosystem as it were.
Two main reasons – I have huge colonies of probiotics and I am producing more than I can drink! (I could produce 4 litres in a day or two). Secondly, I like to steep herbs and spices in the kefir and this makes a delicious starter flavouring.
After a first round of tests it’s been great. Kefir orange juice with cumin and coriander used with peppers; kefir orange juice with turmeric and Indian spices with cauliflower; red cabbage with kefir merlot grape juice and ‘mulled wine’ spices; and kefir citrus juice with slices of lemon.
It can be ready in a few days, and keeps for weeks. It doesn’t go mushy or have the characteristics you disliked when using whey. These particular colonies I have ‘trained’ or they have ‘evolved’ (most likely, a shifting population) over a few years to a fruit (or vegetable) diet. I imagine they do not suppress the natural bacteria on the surfaces of the vegetables and fruits but probably are included in the current scoby.
One thing I can imagine is that the profile at the end of the process is not the same as the microbiotic profile at the beginning. But it certainly hasn’t impaired the flavours.
Thanks for your very interesting site!
What a wonderful, creative set of “Kefir starters” for the various vegetable ferments. For sauerkraut, are you using salt to create a brine and then pouring over the flavored kefir? Or, doing more of a brine ferment? I would assume there would be different bacteria at the end, not to a detriment, necessarily, just different. I don’t necessarily disagree with your methodology, and see it more of a way to impart a range of flavors, especially handy with brine ferments.
It’s definitely a way to impart a further range of flavors, as you say. It’s also a way to put ‘too much kefir and kombucha’ to good use!
I haven’t used this with actual sauerkraut – that is, green cabbage – yet. I have used red cabbage (with and without beets) in kefir-ed red grape juice that has been fermented with kefir grains then second-fermented with ‘Christmassy’ or ‘mulled wine’ spices.
I haven’t used brine or salt – I don’t even pound any more. Just pack it all in, pour over the microbe-rich liquid, and let it go do it’s thing.
I’m with you in not wanted to use a packaged, dried, or indeed ‘commercialized’ starter culture. I think in this case I’m using something that has been evolving in a much more natural way, in my little ecosystem, off fruits and vegetables I’ve been using in the original ferments. No idea if it suppresses, augments, or is maybe even the same species that are naturally present on the raw vegetables.
If I was rich I’d send it to labs for testing! 🙂
I use rinsed milk kefir grains to ferment coconut water, so a similar idea. Have fun! One fine day, I’m going to make a table with what bacteria are in various ferments.
But without a starter you have have only a few strains (yes many colonies, but all of the same strains). A starter gives you a variety of strains. I am not a fan of the famous Dr. Mercola at all, but his culture starter has NINE!! different strains to begin with.
Yes, but those few strains of bacteria – and they’re finding more and more (not positive if that’s colonies or strains) – are all that are necessary to make fermentation happen. The few times I’ve tried starters when making sauerkraut, it’s felt so foreign to me. Adding a packet of bacteria to the bowl when I don’t need to. Messing with the ancient wisdom, I guess and an unnecessary expense. The useful area of exploration would be able to reduce the amount of salt used for those concerned about their salt intake. Thank you for your comment. It keeps my brain working hard.
Hi, I desperately want kraut juice, not sauerkraut. How to?
If you’re looking to ferment cabbage juice and not make fermented “brine” then juice cabbage either with a VitaMix and enough water to blend or a juicer. Weigh your raw juice and add 2% salt. Then pour into a jar, cap and let ferment for a week, or weeks (tasting along the way). Loosen the lid slightly to let gasses escape during the first week. To prevent mold forming on the top “stir” once or twice daily by turning jar upside down and then back upright (make sure lid is tight for this). When done, strain if necessary. Add garlic for bacteria fermentation help and for flavor. It wouldn’t hurt to also add a roughly chopped beet. I haven’t done this, but this is what I would do. Good Luck.
https://www.makesauerkraut.com/salt-by-weight/
Thank you Holly! I think I can do this. The mold prevention tip sounds brilliant. I used to live in Atlanta, and a restaurant there makes wonderful fermented cabbage juice that they sell locally in a few stores. It has helped me (in small amounts) in Crohns flare-ups. Nothing against sauerkraut. I do like it a lot, but I need the therapeutic tonic sans all the cabbage right now.
Sounds good. If fiber is an issue, then strain. And yes, in small amounts. 🙂
Great Info. Thanks! I make my Sauerkraut by mixing lemon juice as well as salt to the cabbage before I harshly squeeze handfuls of the cabbage…with loving intention lol… adding salt and lemon juice to the mixture. It seems with the lemon juice, it break the cabbage down almost immediately if I do it slowly (and really ferments it in no more than 3 days) instead of waiting the week or 2 long that normal sauerkraut takes with just the salt and weights keeping the cabbage pressed down.
After 3 or 4 days leaving it out… a white film starts to grow on top that I will just mix into it in the beginning, but I will scrape it off after a week or 2 when it’s less of a film and seems more like a thicker blanket; lol. What is that white film and is it safe to mix in and eat?
Also, Does using the lemon juice make it equally or more nutritious, or does that inhibit the amount of enzymes and nutritional value of what my sauerkraut could be if I left the lemon juice out? I’ve been fermenting regularly for about a year ( doing Sauerkraut, Water kefir, and Lacto probiotic ferment from Brown Rice, salt and Sugar) but, I’m recently just starting to study and understand it on a deeper level for it’s health benefits. I’m open to anyone’s comments. More knowledge is more power! Thanks again!
Three days to ferment is rather short and my concern would be that enough lactic acid has not built up to really preserve it and that the pH isn’t low enough. Unless it’s super warm, 7-10 days is the minimum.
Search the internet for Kahm yeast to see if that’s the white film you’re talking about. If it get’s mixing into the brine, it can look like a creamy, white film. Kahm yeast is safe though it can taste “yeasty.” The general rule is to remove as much of it as is possible. It tends to return.
Good question on the use of the lemon juice. How much are you using? I haven’t ever used more than the juice of one lemon in a recipe, so yes it is possible that too much may disrupt the bacteria just like vinegar would. With vinegar, it’s not recommended to add it to a ferment until it’s “done” fermenting. Keep on learning and helping all of us to learn.
Thanks for your response, Holly.
This is the benefit of contacting and conversing with people who really know what they’re doing…rather than me… who is just cutting up cabbage, dumping enough salt in to where it tastes salty enough for me (which is more than 2 percent pickling salt per batch), and squeezing probably 7 or 8 whole limes in the mix with 4 -6 large heads of Red & Green cabbage in 2 (5 gallon) buckets; and hoping for the best. I guess I was doing it wrong the whole time. LOL.
I am doing this mostly for the Sauerkraut “Juice” and it’s health benefits in cleansing and the probiotics (which I heard was much higher than water kefir or even milk kefir. I’ll look up the Kahm Yeast and study more on the chemistry of fermentation, so that I’m more informed in what I’m doing, what to expect, and the ideal conditions when the ferment is done.
Organic Sauerkraut Juice can cost as much as $20 for a single16oz bottle of quality juice (Biotta). So making gallons on my own for a fraction of that is much more cost effective and sensible.
Thanks for providing this forum and for your patience. I’m benefiting a lot from your guidance and all the questions and comments down below; which I’m going through slowly. And since health care isn’t going down any time soon, forums like this will be more and more important to those of us looking for effective alternatives.
Thanks again.
” If you are not your own doctor, you are a fool” – Hippocrates, Father of Modern Medicine
Keep on learning and forcing the rest of us to learn, too! There is a difference between the sauerkraut “juice” from Biotta – which is juiced cabbage and sauerkraut “brine” which is the tangy brine that the cabbage fermented in. Hence, the high cost for the juice. Some juice cabbage and then ferment the juice.
A variety of fermented foods is the ideal so that you get a variety of probiotics. Don’t overlook culturing your own milk kefir. It is very healing. Here’s an old post of mine with some links to get you started, if you’re interested: http://www.makesauerkraut.com/fermented-foods-ultimate-guide/
For grins – and comparison – try making one jar of sauerkraut following my teaching recipe. See what skills & knowledge you pick up. http://www.makesauerkraut.com/sure-fire-sauerkraut-in-a-jar/
And, even weigh the salt to really dial down the process: https://www.makesauerkraut.com/salt-by-weight/
Love that quote by Hippocrates. Don’t recall seeing it before.
I’m raising daughters with severe and multiple food allergies which means they are allergic to stuff in starter cultures so your article was very encouraging to me.
My question for you is how would I attempt almond milk yogurt and oat milk yogurt without a starter culture?
Thank you
I don’t have experience with culturing non-dairy yogurts, but… this is a case where you need to use a culture. Vegetables come with the bacteria for fermentation so no need for a culture. To CULTURE yogurt, you need to add a culture. Raw milk will naturally sour on its own. Pasteurized milk – and almond and oat milk – will rot on its own. So, a culture is added, such as a spoonful of yogurt from a previous batch. Most likely not what you want to hear, but is the case. You might be able to make a ginger bug and use that to culture or make Kefir using milk kefir grains.
Thank you for the quick reply. It’s very helpful. Not the most relieving information, but I appreciate it nonetheless. I was wondering if, from your expertise you could safely suggest putting a probiotic capsule in to ferment the non-dairy milk. (My daughters have one probiotic brand that is safe for them … with multiple strands/cultures. )
The reason I ask is because I have yet to find a starter culture that is without their allergens. They typically contain maltodextrin (from corn, rice, wheat). I need a starter culture that is fed with a starch that is not from grains (tapioca, potato).
Thanks again.
Experiment with it. I’ve heard of people doing just that. You’ll want a bit of warmth, around 100F. Warm the milk on the stove and then put into a jar and keep in a small cooler with a few bottles of warm water.
I will try it out. Thanks for your help!
I have a lot of experience with culturing nut milks (almond, cashew and coconut). Use milk kefir grains to culture them for a few times and then refresh the milk kefir grains in milk for a day or two and repeat the same process. Make sure the milk kefir gains are live and healthy and fermenting milk properly before you introduce them to nut milks. This is especially important if you buy the milk kefir grains in a dehydrated state. If your daughters have severe allergy to milk, then take the milk kefir grains and gently swish them in purified water before transferring them to the nut milk. Not recommended unless they have severe allergy symptoms from the minute amounts of milk kefir sticking to the kefir grains.
Thanks so much for adding your experience! I use milk kefir grains for culturing coconut water with great success. http://www.makesauerkraut.com/fermented-coconut-water/
Water kefir grains outperform milk kefir grains when it comes to fermenting coconut water. If you have water kefir grains, try them with coconut water and use the milk kefir grains to ferment coconut milk instead.
I understand exactly what you’re saying and I would 100% agree. But, I don’t like having to take care of another “pet.” That is, do something with the continual increase in numbers of water kefir grains and having to strain them. So, I take the easy route with the milk kefir grains. They hardly grow. I just leave them at the bottom of the jar and pour out what I want to drink. 🙂
Holly, what are your thought on adding garlic as a flavorant? Being that it is considered an antibiotic in some circles, if this were true, would it inhibit bacterial growth? What about ginger?
Both ginger and garlic have been traditionally used in ferments and they happily coexist with the bacteria active in lacto-fermentation. You have a good question, however, and I’ll keep an eye out for research on why antibacterial foods do not interfere with fermentation.
I put ginger in almost every one of my ferments because not only is it delicious but it ferments like crazy. Same with garlic. It’s mostly you that gets to enjoy the antibacterial benefits.
That’s a good way to look at it. Thanks for sharing.
Excellent article! What do you think of putting onions with other vegetables that have lactic acid? Would then be ok for the onions to ferment? Thank you.
Thank YOU and, Yes! They are commonly used as flavor in various ferments. Don’t go overboard, as they can be “strong,” though in this sauerkraut recipe, the large quantity of them works just fine. https://www.makesauerkraut.com/baseball-sauerkraut/
Thanks for all the wonderful information and your time spent preparing it!
We have two questions:
1. If one has ozonated their whole form raw vegetables to kill harmful bacteria on its surface prior to making fermented vegetables, will they still contain enough beneficial bacteria (inside and out) after being slices, diced, or whatever, in order to ferment properly? We do not prefer to use starter cultures, and like you we prefer the old mother nature ways when possible.
2. Is there any reason why one would not (or should not) use a good, clean, multi-spectrum powder or liquid combination form of pre & probiotics, like we take internally in a supplement form — to make their cultured whatever — when a starter is desired, instead of purchasing starter packets designed and marketed specifically for fermenting? Hope that made sense.
Thanks so very much for your assistance! Have a blessed life!
I haven’t researched it, but my guess would be most of the bacteria is killed off. One way to find out for sure? Make a batch and see if there is enough bacteria hiding within to work their magic for you.
Yes, many do use a pro/prebiotic supplement as a starter. Just be aware of the “other” ingredients and how that might impact fermentation. The “starter” packets have specific strains of bacteria that are already present in a natural fermentation environment. Pull up some labels and compare. Happy to help and I very much appreciate your gratitude! for my site 🙂
Holly,
Thank you so very much for the speedy reply! That is exactly what we were thinking, and wanted another opinion before trying out our hands at this for the first time. We will try a batch and see what occurs after ozonation, while also doing a batch without ozonation using the same veggies in like amounts. We will use those same veggies, along with some of our daily pre and probiotics as a starter culture to compare. This should be very interesting. We’ll let you know how it goes. 🙂
Cheers,
Mr & Mrs
Thank you for all the information. I’m just starting out with fermentation. I looked at your site bc Fermented Vegetables doesn’t have “starter” in the index. I’ve taken one class in fermentation, so now I have a million questions. One, I don’t have much luck with carrots, beets or green beans. Too tough. Cauliflower always works, so my latest two batches have little buddettes. One has pickling spices, the other, pepper corns and celery seed. This time, I lightly steamed sliced carrots and green beans. Fingers crossed. Have had great luck with blackberry kvass (I’m using “soda” from now on). But did add a half tsp whey to a qt jar. Bubbles are like velvet! I’ll re-read the info on making the sodas. I may not be tempering them properly. I keep the blackberries in the whole time, until I strain and put into fridge. Of course, they use cane sugar, not salt. Tx again for info.
On those tough veges, buying super fresh – even from the farmer’s market – makes all the difference. You want to start with “young and tender.” I’m glad that the cauliflower is working well. Don’t know if the steamed veges will work; you’re killing off the necessary bacteria. Let me know.
There are a few times when you do need a starter – not natural occurring bacteria. I’v had good luck with just raspberries and honey. They come with plenty of bacteria on them and I would think that blackberries would too. Generally, sodas are a 2-stage process. First, extracting the flavor into a sweet syrup and then stage 2 where you bottle it up and let the bacteria eat the sugars and produce CO2 for the carbonation. Keep on experimenting and learning. It’s a flavorful journey.
I’ve never tried kvass, but blackberry sounds yummy. do you have a recipe you can share?
I just did blueberries with 2% salt by weight and fermented them for 5 days. Delicious. Mix in bowl and let juice up and then pack into a jar with some type of weight. They’ll juice up to create plenty of brine.
Your article was very informative and organized. I also read many of the comments but did not find information on how to deal with salt sensitivity. I have learned to make decent kraut with celery juice since salt sends my blood pressure sky high. I like to eat about a tablespoon of kraut with each meal. Do I have another choice I am not aware of? Thanks
Thank YOU. I don’t have much experience with the starters but many use them successfully to reduce the salt used. Look at some of the companies that sell the starters and see what additional info you can find.
You can also ferment with less salt and rinse your sauerkraut before eating it. Doing so removes some, but not all, of the beneficial probiotics. Do some searching also on blood pressure and table salt vs a full-mineral salt, like Himalayan Pink Salt. Best of luck.
I do use a vegetable starter (caldwell works well but I found a vegetable starter locally from a hippie store last time I needed a new batch that was only 4 bucks) for my first batch, and reuse some of the brine in my next batch if I can keep it going. If I don’t make kim chi for months I do it again.
I don’t really care if it’s traditional. My vegetables come out crunchier, they get sour faster, they seem to have less of that club soda taste and more of that full bodied sour flavor, and best of all when you jump start it you can experiment with using less salt and still get crunchy veggies. I’m all about reducing salt and increasing potassium in my diet because I do not like water retention and bloating . Cabbage, even fermented, is not the easiest thing to digest for some people either so being skinny and into fitness and eating A LOT of fiber in my diet this is a concern for me.
to each their own though. my korean friends scoff at me for doing this and none of them do it. But I’m a white guy and I don’t care about tradition. I care about taste and quick results.
The other nice thing is with vegetable starters you can pickle onions (they are hard to pickle and even when you succeed often they are not a great texture) and I like pickled onions!
Thank you for sharing your positive experiences with using starter cultures. It’s nice for others to know about a way to reduce their sodium intake and make vegetables crispy. I like using the idea of using the starter cultures for pickled onions, which are the only vegetable without inherent bacteria. Cheers to pickled onions.
Good article. Thanks.
Thank YOU! I hope you’re fermenting something delicious. 🙂
I am. I’m loving my sauerkraut and I just tried my first yogurt. You helped me realize that I was using too much salt, and I’m going to shoot for the 2% solution that you recommended. So I expect that will be even better than what I’ve been getting. I’m just starting, but I can’t wait to ferment more things.
I’m so happy to hear that you have caught the fermentation bug. There is no end to this flavorful journey. Yes, getting your salt numbers correct is a game changer.
For lactofermentation, is it always 2%? I calculated that as a brine of 1.82 teaspoons per liter water, or 1/2 t per cup water. I also assumed the vegetables were approximately 100% water, so I figure it’s about 2 teaspoons salt per average 1kg cabbage.
Does that sound right? Thanks so much.
It depends on what you’ve fermenting, but the 2% is a good place to start. I’m starting to use a bit more with beets, and if you were to do brine pickles (cucumbers) they need more salt because they are so watery.
For water, go by weight. Weigh your water and add 2% weight to that. When you’re making sauerkraut, you just add 2% salt based on the weight of the cabbage and that creates the brine. For 1 kg of cabbage, that would be 20 grams of salt. See this post for more: https://www.makesauerkraut.com/salt-by-weight/
And, be sure to check out my teaching recipe: https://www.makesauerkraut.com/sure-fire-sauerkraut-in-a-jar/
Thanks so much! I can’t wait to try it.
I’ve not only caught it, I’m already starting to preach it. My friends and family are scared, but I’m intent on winning them over.
Delicious flavors will win them over. 🙂
Wise.
Let me know how it works out for you. 🙂
can I use a little beer in a brine with salt??
Give it a try. I don’t have experience doing so, but I do know wine has been used to make sauerkraut. Just use a “clean” beer without any preservatives or other nasties in it.
Traditionally it’s added post fermentation as fermentation with beer may produce off flavours primarily from brett yeast.
also can I make my own kefir out of nut milk and how…..am lactose intolerant.
I don’t have experience with nut milk kefir. This website usually has nice, comprehensive recipes: https://www.culturesforhealth.com/learn/milk-kefir/almond-milk-kefir/
Will non-organic store bought cabbage or vegetables ferment ok without a starter culture?
Yes, both organic and non-organic cabbage/vegetables will ferment just fine without a starter. Follow my recipe and you should be fine. In fact, the fermentation process reduces levels of toxins in the food being fermented.
https://www.makesauerkraut.com/sure-fire-sauerkraut-in-a-jar/
Holly, I am a big fan of Dr Mercola. Yes he pitches products on his website. However most of them are superior to similar products and he provides a wealth of knowledge on his site.
That said, his starter culture is basically a concentration of bacteria. I think one reason he uses culture is to amp up the probiotic value of his ferments. By lab analysis, one 6 oz ferment contains more probiotics as an entire bottle of capsule probiotics. Trillions in fact.
So, if someone wants to reduce sodium, get a super dose of probiotics, and eat it days rather than week later, it seems a starter would be the way to go.
Hello Mark, I, likewise, find much valuable information from Dr. Mercola. Yes, many who are trying to reduce sodium find starter cultures helpful. I don’t have enough experience with them so by all means use them. And, like you said, eat them sooner than later. I do recall that the K2 – I know not a bacteria, but part of what he was trying to culture – values had a short window where the levels were nice and high.
I just keep going back to the 1.5-2.5% sodium levels that the bacteria need to properly do their work. So, with my background I would recommend against going below the 1.5% sodium. Just my two-cents. 🙂 Happy Fermenting!
Hey very good information on some of those points I think touching on the backslopping and not allowing for complete fermentation cycle which doesn’t help the full understanding of the vegetable quality and if it has the proper nutrition to complete a healthy fermentation cycle.
I wondered about a couple things.
1. I’m not sure that vinegar is strictly bad to use in combination with lactic acid as with wild yeast brewing facilities they encourage a complex environment which does indeed contain both lactic and acetic as well as yeasts and moulds for a long aging process developing together to breakdown complex sugars perhaps off point here* Also my experience with lactic ferments has been that the moment you open a jar after a proper cycle the degradation of quality drops from that point even after refrigeration. Perhaps it’s a question of storage length and usage?
I have used vinegar with other types of lactic ferments with great results not using apple cider vinegar however which could indicate the difference in aceto Bacter type due to difference of yeast wether naturally occurring on apples or commercially added. I’ve had a lot of types of apple cider vinegar and more often the discovery of its quality of fermentation and aging comes from combining it with other things or cooking it.
Vinegar does interact with lactic acid at an aromatic level which could* cause some off putting volatiles to form with the addition of vinegar. However If you know about the complexity of these interactions there is no hard and fast rule which dictates observation as the best medium rather than strict avoidance.
2. I wonder if the environment is of equal importance to the development of lactic acid. When you consider that a complete anaerobic environment develops a culture that primarily functions in anaerobic state and when removed it has to adapt in the new environment. So if the lactic ferment is done partially anaerobic like in the case of barrel fermentation or liquid submerging. Perhaps the addition of other yeast and moulds are of a benefit to the overall health of the fermentation. Which may allow backslopping to the degree that its not the usage of the culture as a starter but rather as the medium that’s works in an environment to produce consistent results through the strengthening of a complex biodynamic system. As in the case with wild fermentation of vegetables in Japan underground and with sauerkraut in traditional barrel rooms in Germany.
Some good thoughts you share here. I have no experience using vinegar in ferments so your knowledge far surpasses mine in that department. 🙂 I avoid it to not have the acids in the vinegar interfere with the acids the lactobacillus are creating. Also, keeps my life simple.
I like though wonders (#2) on the benefits of backslopping. So much to learn and experiment with. Thanks for sharing.
You don’t even need salt to ferment safely. The salt will actually slow down the fermentation and prevent the growth of a greater variety of bacteria, enzymes, amino acids and also vitamins. All you need is water, even an airtight seal is unnecessary. In more ancient times salt was unaffordable except for royals, so people did it without salt or other preservatives for ages.
The salt will also add a lot to your daily sodium intake, and it’s not needed for safety since the acidity will kill off pathogens naturally. The only advantage of salt is that it preserves the ferment for up to a year, while without salt it will stay good in the fridge for only a month, which for most people I think is plenty.
I’ve found your site to be such a great resource when diving into my fermenting adventures!! Sorry if you’ve already covered this in the discussion below but would you recommend using celery (not juice) in sauerkraut? I am thinking of making a batch with cabbage, carrots, garlic, onion and celery this weekend. Thoughts? Thank you!
Yes, I love celery in sauerkraut. Either chop into bite size pieces or slice thinly to avoid any stringiness. I’m glad you’re enjoying the site. Happy fermenting.
Thank you!!
Hello! Two things.
First, I signed up twice for your newsletter a few days ago but have yet to receive anything in my email.
Second, I am wondering what would be the best way to ferment a cooked vegetable, like winter squash, potato, etc. Or mushrooms, which I have learned have a toxin in them when eaten raw. Do you need to add a culture then, & in that case, what would be the best kind to not disturb the natural stages? Thank you so much.
Sorry to hear about the newsletter. Email my direct (holly AT makesauerkraut DOT com) and I’ll take care of it.
I’m all into taking advantage of the naturally occurring bacteria which are gone with cooked vegetables. Fermenting is a way of “cooking” them. 🙂 I haven’t experimented much with fermenting winder vegetables, but the book “Fermented Vegetables” by the Shockeys is a good reference.
Hi Holly, I’d like to salt ferment mustard leaves as many Asians do, and I understand many of them add “rice water,” which is the unheated water left over from washing a batch of rice, often white rice, not brown rice, but maybe some times brown rice. My guess is that this water contains many lactic acid bacteria that the greens might need to get a fast start with fermentation. What are your thoughts, and thanks?
I would go ahead and give it a try. It sounds like a traditional fermentation process, I don’t know about the specific process.
“Vinegar is an acidic medium commonly used in commercial pickles, sauerkraut and condiments to give the final product a sour, tangy flavor. Such foods are not fermented but instead “pickled” to make a quick shelf-stable product.”
That is absolutely untrue of sauerkraut, which by definition is naturally fermented, even if later canned, bottled or sold refrigerated in plastic bags. Simply processing cabbage in vinegar will not yield a product remotely like sauerkraut. Red cabbage cooked with vinegar, sugar and other ingredients is sold as “sweet and sour cabbage” but I have never seen vinegar listed as an ingredient in any commercial sauerkraut (German style might contain white wine.)
I do see vinegar listed on ingredient labels. I don’t know when it is added, but my understanding it that manufactures add it for flavor. Makes sense, though, that you can’t process cabbage in vinegar and get sauerkraut. 🙂 https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e9321adc7bc2d82707222f331c3fe2f38228d75cfb1eaf590e1f727f8c14ba14.png
I added grated green apple, perhaps too much because the odor is bad. Is this due to excess sugar?
Could be. I apple cut into small cubes is the max recommended for a 1-quart jar of sauerkraut. Grating releases too much sugar.
Incredible writeup. This answered so many questions I had about starter cultures, fermentation progression, natural LAB populations on raw veggies…
Thank YOU!